Friday, October 7, 2011

Dead Fish Make No Babies

After unsuccessfully attempting to calculate the volume of every species of animal on the planet, I started to look for alternative methods for determining whether or not the Biblical account of Noah's flood could have actually happened.

It was not long before my thoughts turned towards what would be going on everywhere else in the world, as opposed to just the happenings on the ark itself.

If a gigantic flood occurred which covered the highest mountain in the world (Mt. Everest, 5.5 miles high), or even if a somewhat less cataclysmic flood took place which covered the highest peak in the region (Mt. Ararat, 3.2 miles high), then all of the bodies of water below these elevations would unite into a single super-ocean.

All of the fish in the oceans, lakes, streams, rivers, ponds, estuaries, etc. would now be swimming in the same body of water, which would have a fairly uniform concentration of salt.

If this super-ocean was high in it's salt concentration, then most of the freshwater fish would die. If the super-ocean had a low salt concentration, then most of the saltwater fish would die. Either way, diverse species which require differing concentrations of salt in their environments in order to survive would all now be clumped into a single gigantic puddle.
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But what does this mean? Well, first you have to decide whether or not you agree with evolution.

First let's examine the scenario if you don't agree with evolution:

Scenario #1: No Macro-Evolution
  • Huge categories of fish would have died during the flood.
  • Let's say that the flood happened to have a high salt concentration, and all the fresh water fish died (although the same scenario applies with super low, low, moderate, high, and super high concentrations of salt- no matter what, the salt concentration would be about the same throughout the super puddle and this would cause someone to lose).
  • There is a mass extinction of all fresh water fish (except for the few that already have the ability to survive in various levels of salinity).
  • The flood recedes.
  • From that point on, there would be essentially no more fresh water fish anywhere beneith the level of the flood (either 3.2 or 5.5 miles), because species do not change.
This is obviously false, because I myself have caught and eaten fresh-water fish at low elevations many times.

Conclusion: If you don't believe in evolution, then it is impossible for the account in Genesis concerning the flood to be factual. This would be considered an error in the Bible.

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Scenario #2: Yes Macro-Evolution
  • Once again, let's say that the salt concentration of the super puddle remains at about the same level as the ocean before the flood.
  • Once again, most of the fresh water fish die.
  • The flood recedes, and we are left with just salt water species, and an extreme minority of freshwater fish that pulled through.
  • Now, because it is possible for species to undergo macro-evolution, they are subject to slow changes over time.
  • Unfortunately, 6000 years is not even close to enough time for speciation to occur (take humans for example- we haven't changed that much in 6000 years). This is especially true when we consider the huge number of species of fresh water fish that would have had to evolve.
Conclusion: Even if macro-evolution occurs, there is not enough time for the diversity of fresh water species to evolve. Because we have a great diversity of fresh water fish, the account in Genesis concerning the flood cannot be factual. The account of the flood in Genesis is an error in the Bible.
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7 comments:

  1. If you do believe that there is an error in the Bible then does this make you question your whole faith in God?
    Do you still consider yourself a Christian?
    I mean these may be obvious answers and I have tried to come to that conclusion by reading your other posts, but they are way to smart for me to understand! haha

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  2. Thank you for your comment! And thank you for calling my posts smart! =D

    It seems to me that an error in the Bible would increase your index of suspicion that the Bible was not written/influenced by a perfect God. However, this depends on the type of error. Is it a blatant error? Are there legitimate interpretations of the text which make the error go away? Is the specific passage poetic, literal, or in the form of a parable?

    With this post specifically, I still need to tie off a few loose ends. For example, I do not know that rate of evolution necessary for fish to adapt to differences in the salinities of their environments. I also do not know how fast the salt content of certain bodies of water would have changed.

    In response to your second question, I would rather not answer unless I know who you are! I am also putting together a few posts on that topic specifically if you would like to wait and read those.

    I hope this response wasn't more than you were hoping for. Thanks again for commenting!

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  3. Thank you for the links, anonymous!

    Thus far I have read the first article, and it brings up some great points! In the future I hope to pursue this topic further.

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  4. I sort of stumbled upon this a little late --- by that I mean by year and some. Your conclusion is logical and constructed well. My one problem is it seems to remove God from the equation. I am not a creationist, however, given that God exists outside of his creation and supersedes the established laws of his creation whenever he wants to; it's plausible to me a worldwide flood did occur. One enters a slippery slope when identifying any part of Scripture as "not-factual" or containing errors. When does it stop? If Scripture is wrong about its account of the Flood then its account of Christ's Resurrection could be wrong as well. Where is the line drawn?

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    Replies
    1. Hi!

      Thanks for your comment! One moment while I respond. :)

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    2. Ok, read your comment and ready to respond now.

      Once again, thanks for the feedback and for reading the post. I think that it is possible to have errors in the Bible, but still have communication from a higher power through the Bible.

      Where is the line drawn? Well, I personally like to check the historicity of each part and determine the best I can whether or not it is true. For example, I think the historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is really strong. Because I also think there is a higher power, and that higher power had a purpose for humanity, and I think that this higher power communicated through Jesus, that at least the parts of the New Testament are valid. I still need to do a lot of studying to establish what I think about the rest of the Bible, though (although I have established that a global flood didn't happen).

      So, yep. It is a slippery slope if certain parts are invalid and other parts aren't. It makes it really hard to interpret Scripture. It makes it really hard to debate theology.

      Unfortunately I don't see any way around it, because I think there are definitive errors in the Bible.

      Most think that because of that the whole Bible needs to be thrown out. I don't think that is the case. Fortunately, the most important part--the part concerning the death and resurrection of Jesus--DOES seem to be extremely strong.

      Thanks again, and I'd love to hear more of your thoughts.

      JTS

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  5. I can give a Catholic perspective, if that is okay with you Stefvonovitch. As you probably know, the Catholic Church does not believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God - just that it was inspired by God. This makes sense to them, because they were around when the books of the Bible were being compiled and edited - and they knew that some books were not meant to be taken in a literal way.

    The story of Noah's Flood, for example, is likely based on the legend of Gilgamesh. People of the time would have known that this story was making a reference to this story; it was being used as an instructive way to warn people of the dangers of corruption.

    It should be understood that the literal translation of the Bible is actually a recent development. In the past, Church Fathers thought of the Garden of Eden as being an actual place - or the fact that Adam could hide behind a tree from God - as being silly. They understood that it was allegorical.

    There are resources into how the Catholic Church translates the Bible, but a quick Google search would do you just fine. :)

    I think that the literal translation problems of the Bible are necessary results of "Sola Scriptura" - and that Rationalism as applied to hermeneutics is necessarily flawed. That is a point to be made at another time, however...

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