Thursday, July 9, 2015

The Argument from a Dissenting "Expert" in a Quazi-Related Field

In the discussions on Climate Change and Evolution, I have noticed a common type of argument that, for some reason, has great psychological pull.

Here is an example from ThePoachedEgg:

The article begins, "A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution."

Here is an excerpt from the article:
Professor James M. Tour is one of the ten most cited chemists in the world. He is famous for his work on nanocars (pictured left, courtesy of Wikipedia), nanoelectronics, graphene nanostructures, carbon nanovectors in medicine, and green carbon research for enhanced oil recovery and environmentally friendly oil and gas extraction. He is currently a Professor of Chemistry, Professor of Computer Science, and Professor of Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science at Rice University. He has authored or co-authored 489 scientific publications and his name is on 36 patents. Although he does not regard himself as an Intelligent Design theorist, Professor Tour, along with over 700 other scientists, took the courageous step back in 2001 of signing the Discovery Institute’s “A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism”, which read: “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”
On Professor Tour’s Website, there’s a very revealing article on evolution and creation, in which Tour bluntly states that he does not understand how macroevolution could have happened, from a chemical standpoint (all bold emphases below are mine – VJT):
As well as the article's quote from Dr. Tour:
Although most scientists leave few stones unturned in their quest to discern mechanisms before wholeheartedly accepting them, when it comes to the often gross extrapolations between observations and conclusions on macroevolution, scientists, it seems to me, permit unhealthy leeway. When hearing such extrapolations in the academy, when will we cry out, “The emperor has no clothes!”?

…I simply do not understand, chemically, how macroevolution could have happened. Hence, am I not free to join the ranks of the skeptical and to sign such a statement without reprisals from those that disagree with me? … Does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution? If so, I would like to sit with that person and be taught, so I invite them to meet with me.
The article concludes:
In a more recent talk, entitled, Nanotech and Jesus Christ, given on 1 November 2012 at Georgia Tech, Professor Tour went further, and declared that no scientist that he has spoken to understands macroevolution – and that includes Nobel Prize winners! Here’s what he said when a student in the audience asked him about evolution.
I will now summarize the argument:

1. Dr. Tour is a very successful scientist, respected in his field of chemistry.
2. Dr. Tour claims that he does not understand how macroevolution could take place from the perspective of a chemist.
3. Dr. Tour claims that evolutionary biologists also don't understand how macroevolution could take place.
4. Therefore, it is reasonable to think that macroevolution didn't take place. If Dr. Tour thinks so, then certainly others can be justified in thinking so.

Here is why this argument is useless: If we allow this type of argumentation to be valid, I can simply make the same argument:

1. Dr. Dylan Schwilk is a highly successful scientist, respected in his field of plant evolution and ecology.
2. Dr. Schwilk claims that he DOES understand how macroevolution could take place.
3. Dr. Schwilk claims that evolutionary biologists DO understand how macroevolution could take place.
4. Therefore it is reasonable to think that macroevolution did take place. If Dr. Schwilk thinks so, then certainly others can be justified in thinking so.

Then I could proceed to do the same thing, making the argument with every scientist that does and doesn't support macroevolution--and we would come out with a huge majority in favor of macroevolution (including many on par with Dr. Tour--except with PhD's actually in the field of evolutionary biology).

If ThePoachedEgg's argument against macroevolution is valid, then my argument for macroevolution, using the EXACT SAME reasoning, is more valid. I can give more anecdotes about impressive scientists who do accept macroevolution, understand how macroevolution could happen, and think that other scientists do understand how macroevolution could happen.

Does this mean that dissenting scientists are never right? Obviously not! Dissenting scientists can totally be right--but the thing is, they need to have evidence and arguments that support their position. You can't just accuse an entire field of scientists of "not understanding their field", like ThePoachedEgg does, and expect rational people to believe you.

Dissenting scientists, with solid evidence, win Nobel Prizes. Good evidence and good arguments win in science--not anecdotes from dissenters in separate fields who have epiphanies about the supposed lack of understanding present in the majority of scientists in the actual field being discussed. If evolution isn't supported by the majority of evidence and arguments, collect your Nobel Prize, ThePoachedEgg.

10 comments:

  1. Josh,

    In all fairness, I think you have very much misunderstood the article (originally found here http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-world-famous-chemist-tells-the-truth-theres-no-scientist-alive-today-who-understands-macroevolution/ not in The Poached Egg). [for disclosure I am associated directly with The Poached Egg]

    In summarizing what you believe to be the premises of the article and end with this conclusion:
    "[4]. Therefore, it is reasonable to think that macroevolution didn't take place. If Dr. Tour thinks so, then certainly others can be justified in thinking so."

    The essential problem is that the article does not make the argument at all similar to what you have suggested. Your conclusion is simply asserted on behalf of the article. In fact, the whole point of the article is that there is a conspicuous *lack* of an argument on the side of macro-evolution from a bio-chemical perspective.

    The article's only argument is that there is a lack of an argument from the evolutionists. Now, it might or might not be the case that there is a lack of a positive argument. That is a worthwhile thing to discuss, but the one thing that is *not* being asserted is something like, 'because I don't see the evidence, macro-evolution is false.' Tour is simply pointing out that one shouldn't be coerced to believe something if there is, in fact, no positive case being made for it (I surely imagine that you agree with that principle, particularly given the name of the website). You write, "If ThePoachedEgg's argument against macroevolution is valid..." Please try to see the critical distinction here. Tour is making no argument against macroevolution; he is claiming a lack of argument *for* macroevolution.

    What I am suggesting is confirmed in this key quote from the original article: "But the mechanism is precisely what we don’t have evidence for. So the question remains: why should we believe in macroevolution?" However, in your response you say, "Does this mean that dissenting scientists are never right? Obviously not! Dissenting scientists can totally be right--but the thing is, they need to have evidence and arguments that support their position." Are you correct? Well, yes and no. Yes, IF someone is making a positive argument (and Tour is not). No, a dissenting scientist (or anyone else) does not need to have evidence if they are simply asking for the evidence from the other side and suggesting it isn't as easy to come by as might be assumed. Now, he does give anecdotal evidence that there are more doubting scientists than are publicly known. Unless we want to call him a liar we have to take those at face value. Then we would only get in a tit for tat role call of names and credentials, which as you suggest yourself is unproductive. But you have to recognize the simplicity and power of what Tour has done. He has simply called out the scientific community to show the evidence. According to him, they are reluctant to do so.

    But, it should be (and is) easy to call his bluff... just provide what he is asking for. Provide the chemical synthesis mechanism that macroevolution uses.

    Blake Anderson

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    1. Hi Blake,

      Thank you so much for reading and taking the time to post! Before responding to your comment, may I recommend a post that I wrote as a counter to physicalism? I think you would really enjoy it: http://honestsearchfortruth.blogspot.com/2015/06/mind-vs-brain-1.html

      To start out, in none of my writings do I mean to disrespect Dr. Tour. I respect Dr. Tour, he is an outstanding scientist, and he is also very kind--even before starting my MD/PhD he agreed to meet with me to discuss evolution. We still plan to meet once I get a chance to travel to Houston.

      I will respond with comments point by point to keep things organized.

      If you would like to respond, it could be useful to refer to this point as "Point 1"

      --You said
      ---"In all fairness, I think you have very much misunderstood the article"
      --Based on this reason
      ---I said:
      ----"[4]. Therefore, it is reasonable to think that macroevolution didn't take place. If Dr. Tour thinks so, then certainly others can be justified in thinking so."
      ---To which you replied:
      ----"The essential problem is that the article does not make the argument at all similar to what you have suggested. Your conclusion is simply asserted on behalf of the article. In fact, the whole point of the article is that there is a conspicuous *lack* of an argument on the side of macro-evolution from a bio-chemical perspective."

      The article makes exactly the point that I said it did. Here is a quote:

      "Why should we believe macroevolution, if nobody understands it?
      Now that Professor Tour has informed the world that even Nobel Prize-winning scientists privately admit that they don’t understand macroevolution, a layperson is surely entitled to ask: 'Well, if even they don’t understand it, then why should we believe it? How can we possibly be obliged to believe in a theory which nobody understands?'
      That’s a good question. And it’s no use for Darwinists to trot out the standard “party line” that 'even if we don’t yet understand how it happened, we still have enough evidence to infer that it happened.' At the very most, all that the current scientific evidence could establish is the common descent of living organisms. But that’s not macroevolution. Macroevolution requires more than a common ancestry for living organisms: it requires a natural mechanism which can generate the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today from a common stock, without the need for any direction by an Intelligent Agent. But the mechanism is precisely what we don’t have evidence for. So the question remains: why should we believe in macroevolution?"

      I don't mean to be too hard on you, but in all fairness, I think you very much misunderstood the article, or simply didn't read the whole thing.

      Again, the article CLEARLY states "Now that Professor Tour has informed the world that even Nobel Prize-winning scientists privately admit that they don’t understand macroevolution, a layperson is surely entitled to ask: “Well, if even they don’t understand it, then why should we believe it? How can we possibly be obliged to believe in a theory which nobody understands?”

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    2. At this point, I have established that the article does make the argument I said that it made, therefore it was appropriate for me to use it as an example of "The Argument from a Dissenting "Expert" in a Quazi-Related Field".

      I'm happy to leave it at, but I am also open to discussing the rest of the article.

      There is an argument from evolutionists--there is a positive argument as well as a chemical mechanism for macroevolution--and Dr. Tour has agreed to meet with me. The scientific community is stepping up (I'm going to meet with him). I think the essential missunderstanding between Dr. Tour and evolutionary biologists is the difference between macroevolution and abiogenesis.

      Anyway, I am happy to discuss that in detail if you are interested, but at this point it is a separate topic from the content of this point.

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    3. Josh, I hate to say this, but your reply only re-enforces that you don't understand the vital distinction I made. You have in no way established that the article says what you say it does. (Yes, I did read the entire article. No, you aren't being too hard on me.) You need to look closely at what is being claimed versus what you are saying. Stop and look at the words and their meanings, and don't worry about the fact that you disagree with an particular scientific scenario or not. This is a philosophical distinction that has great import. Here it is in another way... there is a *huge difference in saying the following things:
      A - X is false because I don't have any evidence.
      B - X does not need to be accepted (i.e., it is not demonstrably true) until evidence is provided

      Tour (and the article) does *not* assert A. He does say B (I'm sure you agree with B).

      Here it is in the actual text:
      You said "[4]. Therefore, it is reasonable to think that macroevolution didn't take place." Your phrasing "didn't" [did not] is clearly a representation of A.

      However, here are the quotes you give:
      - ""Why should we believe macroevolution, if nobody understands it?"
      - [if] "even Nobel Prize-winning scientists privately admit that they don’t understand macroevolution, a layperson is surely entitled to ask..."
      - "But the mechanism is precisely what we don’t have evidence for. So the question remains: why should we believe in macroevolution?""
      - "if even they don’t understand it, then why should we believe it?"
      - "How can we possibly be obliged to believe in a theory which nobody understands?”

      I could go on pointing out grammar. However, it is quite clear that all of the statements are asserting B.

      In ignoring the difference between A and B statements you have drawn incorrect conclusions. You have titled it "The Argument *from Dissenting [person]." The point is this: there was absolutely no positive argument regarding the falsity of evolution in the article, and thus it is a misnomer. There was no argument from dissent. There was no A. However, there was plenty of B. The difference is not inconsequential. Perhaps I have missed something in the article and I am wrong that there is no A. I would be happy to have it pointed out to me.

      I'm glad you are meeting with Dr. Tour and I am not intending here to comment on the evidence pro or con for there being a mechanism for abiogenesis or macroevolution (the differences between the two being clear though inter-related). But if you are going to meet with him, you will first want to understand what he is saying and not put words in his mouth. That gives a better starting point for scientific dialog.

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    4. Hi Blake!

      I agree that multiple arguments were made in the article, and by Dr. Tour. However, the argument from the reliability of a dissenting scientist was present. Here is my summary, accompanied by quotes from the article. I think our main point of difference is on #4.

      1. Dr. Tour is a very successful scientist, respected in his field of chemistry.
      --"Professor James M. Tour is one of the ten most cited chemists in the world. He is famous for his work on nanocars (pictured left, courtesy of Wikipedia), nanoelectronics, graphene nanostructures, carbon nanovectors in medicine, and green carbon research for enhanced oil recovery and environmentally friendly oil and gas extraction. He is currently a Professor of Chemistry, Professor of Computer Science, and Professor of Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science at Rice University. He has authored or co-authored 489 scientific publications and his name is on 36 patents. Although he does not regard himself as an Intelligent Design theorist, Professor Tour, along with over 700 other scientists, took the courageous step back in 2001 of signing the Discovery Institute’s “A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism”, which read: “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”
      2. Dr. Tour claims that he does not understand how macroevolution could take place from the perspective of a chemist.
      --"I simply do not understand, chemically, how macroevolution could have happened. Hence, am I not free to join the ranks of the skeptical and to sign such a statement without reprisals from those that disagree with me? … Does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution? If so, I would like to sit with that person and be taught, so I invite them to meet with me."
      3. Dr. Tour claims that evolutionary biologists also don't understand how macroevolution could take place.
      --"I don’t understand evolution, and I will confess that to you. Is that OK, for me to say, “I don’t understand this”? Is that all right? I know that there’s a lot of people out there that don’t understand anything about organic synthesis, but they understand evolution. I understand a lot about making molecules; I don’t understand evolution. And you would just say that, wow, I must be really unusual.
      Let me tell you what goes on in the back rooms of science – with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. I have sat with them, and when I get them alone, not in public – because it’s a scary thing, if you say what I just said – I say, “Do you understand all of this, where all of this came from, and how this happens?” Every time that I have sat with people who are synthetic chemists, who understand this, they go “Uh-uh. Nope.” These people are just so far off, on how to believe this stuff came together. I’ve sat with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. Sometimes I will say, “Do you understand this?”And if they’re afraid to say “Yes,” they say nothing. They just stare at me, because they can’t sincerely do it."
      4. Therefore, it is reasonable to think that macroevolution didn't take place. If Dr. Tour thinks so, then certainly others can be justified in thinking so.
      --"Why should we believe macroevolution, if nobody understands it?"
      --"Now that Professor Tour has informed the world that even Nobel Prize-winning scientists privately admit that they don’t understand macroevolution, a layperson is surely entitled to ask: “Well, if even they don’t understand it, then why should we believe it? How can we possibly be obliged to believe in a theory which nobody understands?”"

      Every point in my summary is present in the article. Because I was using one argument from the article as an example, I never engaged the many other arguments.

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    5. Keep in mind that on #4, "Why should we believe macroevolution, if nobody understands it?" is a statement only supported by Dr. Tour--not by the majority of scientists.

      I am also happy to branch out into the other arguments made in the article--and provide the evidence that you and Dr. Tour claim is lacking.

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    6. Josh, please go back and examine the wording and meanings of the A and B statements as I outlined them. Your quotes under #4 *do not* contain the elements of your conclusion in #4. You are rewriting the text to get a different meaning. Your framing of what follows the "therefore" is making a positive assertion against evolution. The quotes only point out a lack of positive evidence. You say therefore, "macroevolution DID NOT take place [emphasis mine]. A conclusion in a valid argument can not include a concept that is not in the premises.

      The argument from the 'reliability of a dissenting scientist' was nowhere present. Not unless you can point to the words in the article that mean, "macroevolution did not take place." We can keep boiling this down to tighter and tighter logic, but it won't change the outcome. Sorry.

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  2. Josh, I would also suggest that the tone of your response only plays into another thing that is being said in the article: that there is not an open dialog about these issues. You say, "You can't just accuse an entire field of scientists of 'not understanding their field', like ThePoachedEgg does, and expect rational people to believe you." You put "not understand your field" in quotes, but that is not said. Where do you get that? What is said is more like, 'I don't understand. Help me to understand. Show me. No one seems to be stepping up to the plate.'

    You continue, "not anecdotes from dissenters in separate fields who have epiphanies about the supposed lack of understanding present in the majority of scientists in the actual field being discussed. If evolution isn't supported by the majority of evidence and arguments, collect your Nobel Prize, ThePoachedEgg." Not only does it come across as rather ad hominem, it shows a possible lack of understanding that there is not only one field of study that has an important role in investigating the issues of macroevolution. Further, as the original article suggests, "allow[ing . . ] young scientists to think freely about the origin of life, and of the various species of organisms that we find on Earth today" is a pretty good idea in the university where the free exchange of ideas is supposed to be a foundational principle.

    So, I'll just say this in conclusion: I'm willing to read any book you send me or watch any lecture you send me that demonstrates the methodology of the bio-chemical synthesis of life in evolutionary terms. Really. I'm willing to consider the evidence.

    Blake Anderson

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    1. Hi again!

      I'm totally open to discussion on this subject! Sorry if my tone was scary. I apologize if it was!

      It is simply true that saying an entire field of scientists doesn't understand their field isn't convincing--I was thinking along the lines of Dr. Alvin Plantinga's standard for establishing truth--whether a group of rational people would agree.

      As for the quotes, I was using the "Writing about letters and words" sense of quotation marks--not making a direct quote (otherwise I would have specified who made the statement). There are multiple ways to use quotation marks that are grammatically correct.

      There is a difference between respectful disagreement and not supporting open dialogue.

      I'm totally open to talking with you about this! Like right now! :)

      Thank you for being willing to read a book/watch a lecture that demonstrates the methodology of the bio-chemical synthesis of life in evolutionary terms!

      Could you clarify? Are you looking for methodology for macroevolution or for abiogenesis? What I send depends on what you are looking for.

      Cheers!

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    2. Hey,

      I didn't say scary:-) I did say, "rather ad hominem." And I'm glad you are open to discussion. Thanks for your time on this. The apparent sarcasm in the title and in your concluding paragraph does give a rather elitist framework to the discussion. It seems a rather odd approach based on Dr. Tour's credentials and those of the people he cites in the article. There appears to be groups of rational people on both sides of these issues.

      My point has been, though, that it isn't respectful dialog to make hasty inaccurate generalizations about what someone else is saying. As thinkers and those in pursuit of the truth, we have to be very careful in how we represent someone else's ideas. If they are wrong, so be it. Neither am I free from snark myself in what I write, but a sharp edge needs to be at least accurate. Thank you for clarifying your usage of quotes in this context (I thought you were doing as much), but when we put something in quotes even in a representative way it really needs to actually represent what was said. It did not. Nowhere did the article accuse an entire field of scientists of not understanding their field. Be careful with words. They mean things. There is a vast difference between saying, in essence, 'where's the evidence for this particular issue in the subset of your field,' and saying, 'you don't have understanding of your field.' Please, just be careful in how you frame someone's words (whether or not you agree with them).

      Now, regarding a resource to better educate me. I will readily admit that I am no scientist. But I'm not a complete idiot ('complete' being a very important modifier here, because as many will attest I am somewhat of an idiot). I worked in engineering for many years, so I can wade through things that are fairly complex. So, I'd really like to see the best shot that someone has at explaining the process. As to abiogenesis, it seems to me that since that topic is currently a black hole in science that it would be better to focus on macroevolution itself. Though I'm interested in anything on abiogenesis as well if you have it. So, what I am looking for is a workable model of how macroevolution could have happened from a chemical standpoint. Not that it happened. But how. How is macroevolution accounted for at the chemical level? I simply haven't seen anything to date, though there very well might be something available.

      I am also intensely interested in hearing about anything that comes from the dialog between Dr. Tour and the scientific community.

      I will be reading your article on mind and physicalism you suggested. Looking forward to it.

      Best regards Josh.

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