I understand that this topic may be upsetting to most people (I have personally spent hours agonizing over this). It is not my intention at all to make fun of, speak lightly about, or in any way treat this topic in an inappropriate way. I am honestly searching for truth. Please give what I have to say a chance before writing it off as false. As always, I welcome any evidence or logic that would prove me wrong.
Note: 'God' in this post refers to the Christian God of the Bible, YHWH
Disclaimer #1: All arguments in this post could start with the phrase "assuming God exists..." This is not a post concerning the existence of God; it concerns one of the characteristics of God if He does exist.
Disclaimer #2: While I do consider myself a Calvinist, I am choosing not to utilize some of my Calvinistic beliefs in this post in order to avoid unnecessary debate. (Calvinism is not necessary for me to make my point)
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My argument is based on the following assumptions:
When it comes to #4, just check out any religion statistics website. Most people are not Christians.
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God created everything, which means that He also created the human race. When He did so, He knew that the majority of people would not accept Him. In addition, God created hell. He knew that He would send most people to hell because of their failure to accept Jesus.
Did God do this because He loved those people? I think that the obvious answer to that question is no. A much better explanation for why God created the majority of people knowing that they would go to hell would be that He wanted to pour out His wrath upon them. He had the option to 'not' create those people, correct?
In addition, mainstream Christianity considers hell to be eternal, inescapable torture.
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I expect that many readers may be thinking "God wouldn't be loving if He didn't give them the choice." Is it loving to give a child the option to throw themselves into eternal torture, knowing that the child will choose the torture? It would be much more loving to take away that decision.
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Conclusion:
Is the Christian God a 'loving' God?
It depends on the person. If person x is a child of God (a Christian) then YES, God is extremely loving (so much that His love for them cannot grow). If person x is an enemy of God (not a Christian) then NO, God is wrathful and terrifying. God does not love the people He sends (or allows to go) to hell.
Note: 'God' in this post refers to the Christian God of the Bible, YHWH
Disclaimer #1: All arguments in this post could start with the phrase "assuming God exists..." This is not a post concerning the existence of God; it concerns one of the characteristics of God if He does exist.
Disclaimer #2: While I do consider myself a Calvinist, I am choosing not to utilize some of my Calvinistic beliefs in this post in order to avoid unnecessary debate. (Calvinism is not necessary for me to make my point)
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My argument is based on the following assumptions:
- God created everything
- God knows everything
- If people do not accept Jesus, they go to hell
- Most people do not accept Jesus
When it comes to #4, just check out any religion statistics website. Most people are not Christians.
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God created everything, which means that He also created the human race. When He did so, He knew that the majority of people would not accept Him. In addition, God created hell. He knew that He would send most people to hell because of their failure to accept Jesus.
Did God do this because He loved those people? I think that the obvious answer to that question is no. A much better explanation for why God created the majority of people knowing that they would go to hell would be that He wanted to pour out His wrath upon them. He had the option to 'not' create those people, correct?
In addition, mainstream Christianity considers hell to be eternal, inescapable torture.
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I expect that many readers may be thinking "God wouldn't be loving if He didn't give them the choice." Is it loving to give a child the option to throw themselves into eternal torture, knowing that the child will choose the torture? It would be much more loving to take away that decision.
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Conclusion:
Is the Christian God a 'loving' God?
It depends on the person. If person x is a child of God (a Christian) then YES, God is extremely loving (so much that His love for them cannot grow). If person x is an enemy of God (not a Christian) then NO, God is wrathful and terrifying. God does not love the people He sends (or allows to go) to hell.
Interesting question; I think it’s a very good one to ask. I think that too often we let songs like “Jesus Loves Me” be more influential in our beliefs than the Bible. However, I’m not sure I agree with some of the things you say. Here’s a few of my thoughts:
ReplyDelete1. I think the Bible states that God loved the world (and allegedly those in the world) before any redemption possibilities were made available: John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
2. Along the same line of reasoning, I believe the Bible makes it clear that salvation is intended for all, and God is genuinely saddened when people do not choose it: 2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
3 In response to the following excerpt: “Is it loving to give a child the option to throw themselves into eternal torture, knowing that the child will choose the torture? It would be much more loving to take away that decision.”
I would like to propose the following alternative reasoning: it is the decision whether or not to love God, rather than the decision to throw oneself into eternal torture which is important. In order for there to be true love directed towards God by people, there must be an equal capacity to direct hatred towards him. If our decision to follow God is out of our control, our relationship with him is a cold and meaningless one, but if our love for him is our own decision, then it results in a genuine relationship.
First off, here is a highly relevant verse:
ReplyDeleteRomans 9:22
"So then what if God, in order to fulfil his desire to demonstrate wrath and to make known his power, sustained and tolerated with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,"
(Piper's translation)
The Bible tells us many things about God's character. The challenge is for us finite and fallible humans to wrap our feeble brains around an infinitely complex God. Yes, the Bible teaches that God is love (1 John 4:8) and that he also loves the entire world that he sent his only Son Jesus to die on our behalf (John 3:16) and to satisfy his wrath against us for our sin (Romans 3:25). We find in Malachi 1:2-3 that God loved Jacob yet he hated Esau. So it must be true that God does not love everyone. (btw: the remarkable thing in this passage is not that God hated Esau but that he loved Jacob. It shows God's great grace because Jacob was not a real lovable guy. We can't earn God's love.)
ReplyDeleteHow does God show his love on everyone, even those who do not chose to follow him through Jesus Christ? He loves them enough to allow them to live. He loves them enough to give them the opportunity to hear the gospel of salvation. He loves them enough to let them live long enough to repent of their sins. He loves them enough to postpone his wrath on them.
The danger of the 'God loves everyone' mindset is the belief that God will eventually let everyone off the hook for their sin. There is some idea that God's sense of love will triumph over his sense of justice and that everyone will eventually avoid God's wrath even if they reject Jesus. Unfortunately, the Bible does not bear that out.
Thanks for your comments!
ReplyDeleteJames, I entirely agree with your first paragraph.
I also agree with the second paragraph (except that it does not look far enough into the past or the future). There are certainly ways in which God loves everyone. However, I still hold that in an ultimate sense He does not. God gives temporary grace during people's lifetimes. This grace ends when they die unsaved. There is no greater example of what love is NOT than hell, especially if it is eternal.
Another on topic verse:
Romans 9:14–23
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Here is an example far inferior to that of sending people to hell: Amalekites
ReplyDeleteExodus 17:8-16
"8 Then Amalek came and fought with Israel at Rephidim. 9 So Moses said to Joshua, “Choose for us men, and go out and fight with Amalek. Tomorrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the staff of God in my hand.” 10 So Joshua did as Moses told him, and fought with Amalek, while Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. 11 Whenever Moses held up his hand, Israel prevailed, and whenever he lowered his hand, Amalek prevailed. 12 But Moses’ hands grew weary, so they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it, while Aaron and Hur held up his hands, one on one side, and the other on the other side. So his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. 13 And Joshua overwhelmed Amalek and his people with the sword. "14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write this as a memorial in a book and recite it in the ears of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.” 15 And Moses built an altar and called the name of it, The Lord is my banner, 16 saying, “A hand upon the throne of the Lord Jacob! The Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation."
I think that it is safe to say that God does not love the Amalekites. Yes, he allowed them to live for some time. However, the fact that He obliterates them would lead me to believe that He hates them.
When it comes to nonbelievers in general- yes, God allows them to live for a short period of time. After that, He sends them to hell for eternity. Should we really even be discussing the ridiculously short life during which the people were not experiencing torture?
James, God doesn’t let anyone off the hook for their sin ever ever ever. The wages of sin is death, period. There is no way around this except for Christ’s sacrifice. I agree with Josh when he says that there’s a temporary grace period that men loved and unloved alike get to wander the earth. But when all is said and done, some will still reject God 100%. The story of Noah, I think, illustrates this well:
ReplyDelete5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
~Genesis 6:5-8
God regretted making the human race. Ouch. Doesn’t sound like He loved everyone to me... After all, out of the entire human race He only saw fit to save Noah and his family.
I think it’s important to remember that we as humans can never fully understand God nor His methods. I find great comfort in that, actually. If I can fully understand every aspect of my God and why He does things the way He does, it stands to reason that He’s no greater than me and not worthy of worship. Let’s close with a re-quoting of Romans 9:20: but who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?
I agree that the Bible indicates that different people receive different treatment from God. Romans 9 makes it very clear that God has different purposes for different people, and that he sometimes goes so so far as to harden someone’s heart or even destroy a nation in order to carry out his plan. I would like to point out, however, that this chapter has no bearing on the fact that he desires for all to be saved, and that salvation is intended for all people (though only a few find it).
ReplyDeleteTherefore, it comes down to definitions. If we define “love” as meaning that God treats everybody equally then, no, he does not “love” everyone. But if we define it to mean that he desires salvation for every person and is saddened when they refuse it, then the Bible clearly says that he does “love” the entire world.
I don't think the real question is "does God love everyone?" The real question is "Is God all powerful?" because if He is (and we presume him to be) then he is worthy of all glory, and accordingly He should only do things that keep his "glory meter" at 100%. So is God love; is He hate; is He just, wrathful; is He merciful; is He good? He is all of these and more because these are all proclaimed in the Bible, and they are not mutually exclusive - He is in fact all of these all at the same time, and He utilizes whichever is necessary in the moment to keep that glory meter at the max.
ReplyDeleteSo to say that loves one and hates another may be true (and certainly it is), but to say that when He is exercising His wrath he is not also exercising His love would be false. It is just as loving for Him to exercise His wrath as it is wrathful to exercise His love. The two are inseparable because justice and mercy are united at the cross. Every time God shows love towards us, He sees the perfect lamb that was slain (His wrath poured out on His son), and every time He shows wrath, He sees the perfect lamb that was slain (the ultimate love that could be shown).
The greatest way for God to exercise His glory is to at the same time pour out all his love on His son and pour out all hate on humanity, but instead he chose to do the exact opposite so that the so called "great exchange," as Luther put it, could exist - not only does Christ take the sins of "many," (and I believe it to be many and not all) but we also receive His righteousness.
Dear Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comment! Even though I disagree with you on this topic (as seen below), I very much appreciate your input. I would love to hear back from you again in the future- perhaps I am wrong!
You said "It is just as loving for Him to exercise His wrath as it is wrathful to exercise His love. The two are inseparable because justice and mercy are united at the cross."
Do you not realize why people go to hell? It is because the death of Jesus on the cross does not apply to them. If it did, they would be saved and go to heaven. What I'm trying to say is that when God looks at someone he is sending to hell, he is NOT seeing the perfect lamb that was slain, he is seeing their sin.
People who go to hell do not get that 'mercy of God' you are talking about. They only get wrath. If the unsaved did get love, there would be no reason for Jesus to have died on the cross.
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I am going to attempt to come up with the worst, most hateful thing someone could do to someone else... I'm thinking eternal torture of the absolute worst kind.
Let's say that God tortures someone in the worst way possible for eternity... Is he loving that person by doing so?
You said "to say that when He is exercising His wrath he is not also exercising His love would be false." Are you saying that when God sends someone to hell he is expressing his love for them? Do you think hell is an expression of love?
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI'm just calling it like it is.
Torturing someone for eternity is NOT loving that person.
In your first paragraph you stated:
ReplyDeleteGod created everything, which means that He also created the human race. When He did so, He knew that the majority of people would not accept Him. In addition, God created hell. He knew that He would send most people to hell because of their failure to accept Jesus.
Perhaps the view of hell stated in this paragraph is incorrect, thus leading to an incomplete answer to your original question. I would not say we choose heaven or hell, but rather, we choose him or we do not. The absense of God is the absence of grace, truth, life...thus a state we label as hell. It is not a matter of choosing a ripe apple or a rotten apple when starving, but choosing to have a ripe apple or no apple.
What does this have to do with the original question though? Well, if you're starving and a man holds out an apple to you, you must reach out and accept it to have it, but too often our pride stops us from reaching out and recieving the ripe apple.
In a similar sense, we starve to be with God, and he loves us and offers us that apple with a stretched arm, but we must still reach and recieve his salvation. When we choose not to, we wither away in our pride and hunger.
Forgive the cliche but...you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
This is from anonymous, but in case someone else wants to be anonymous you can call me HTS.
ReplyDeleteSorry for potential confusion in some of my somewhat ambiguous statements relating hate and love and justice and mercy. When I say that it's no more hateful than loving to send someone to hell, I mean to say that if someone is not cleansed by the lamb then to send them to hell is loving to those who are cleansed. And conversely, if God was to pardon someone who did not recognize Him as LORD, then He would be showing hate towards the beloved and love towards a goat. So yes it is hateful to send someone to hell, but it is out of love for His beloved. I think we more or less share the same view (we go to the same church), I'm just trying to see more of the big picture of how it all fits together instead just a narrow eyepiece.
Stephanie,
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for your comment and for reading my blog post! I very much appreciate your input!
It seems to me that not choosing God results not only in not experiencing God in heaven, but also in experiencing something extremely terrible. The Bible describes hell as a place where there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth.' It is designated as the place where God justly pours his wrath out upon people for their sins. It is described as a lake of fire.
Would you not agree that this is more of a ripe apple or a rotten apple situation?
I can understand that in one sense people either choose or do not choose God- that is an apple or no apple choice. In a different sense, the consequences of the choice results in heaven or hell, which is a ripe apple or rotten apple choice.
Here is my response to your ending thought: "Forgive the cliche but... you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."
I think that if you are God, the situation is more like this: 'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, although you could have decided to just not create the horse in the first place knowing that the horse would choose to go to hell.'
Does that make sense? If God knows what the horse will choose, and he decides to go ahead and create not only the horse but also the punishment that the horse will receive, then he hates that horse.
Once again thank you for sharing your thoughts. I would love to hear from you more in the future.
-Josh
HTS,
ReplyDeleteGood to hear from you again! And thank you for clarifying.
You said: "So yes it is hateful to send someone to hell, but it is out of love for His beloved."
Should I take this to mean that we are in agreement? It has been my contention that God hates those whom he sends to hell. Obviously he loves those whom he sends to heaven.
I am not sure whether or not God sends people to hell as an expression of his love for others... Something about that does not sit right with me, but that is a different topic.
I would agree that I am looking through "just a narrow eyepiece." The scope of my argument only comments upon the idea that God hates (and does not love) most people beacause he is ultimately responsible for most people going to hell, nothing more.
Thank you again for your thoughts and clarifications!
P.S. Out of curiousity, which church are you refering too?
Yes, God hates some and loves others "I loved Jacob and hated Esau." In all of God's sovereignty there is no reason why me and you are part of the elect and others are not - God chose to show favor on us, against our will, and accordingly we will spend eternity in heaven with him. So if God was to look upon someone as a sinner and to pardon them by any means other than His son, then that would be a very unloving thing towards those who do love Christ. So that is where my argument is derived from. In the end of things, the only way for God to love his chosen people is to simultaneously hate the others.
ReplyDeleteRedeemer Lubbock
I would say that we are good acquaintances. We've known each other for 2 or 3 years now. We've taken courses together, we've played frisbee together, we have several mutual friends.
Haha! I hadn't thought so deep as not making the horse in the first place. But, I would think the horse would rather be made than not exist at all. I'll have to ponder this. Let me get back to you. And in reference to the ripe apple v. no apple v. rotten apple...I know the bible proclaims hell as a place, but I think thats just the name we give a place absent of God. I wouldn't say God created it, although he did create all things. But I wouldn't say hell is a thing...just an absence...and absent space.
ReplyDeleteRefering to the original statement. So say God doesn't love us all and some of us are damned to hell upon our conception. Then crap...we're living in a lottery!!! I would say, and perhaps it is naive, we were made in God's image, but we are not God, so how could we ever possibily understand how he loves, how he hopes, how he hurts, or how he sees anything? I think if we try to understand him in our terms, we will be misserabily dissapointed because we simply cannot fathom him. By my definition of love and by the qualifications you've provided in your writing, I would say you've made a strong point and I agree and it bothers me that I agree...but yet I dont believe it. And thats because I know I am defining His love by MY terms, not His.
HTS,
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for all of your comments. I have enjoyed our conversation.
At this point I do not know what God's reasons are for hating most people, but I am open to discussing that topic.
It seems that God choosing to pardon someone based on something other than Jesus would not so much be unloving as it would be unjust.
I am also curious whether or not we can derive anything about God's character based upon the number of people he sends to hell versus the number of people he sends to heaven. If we can, then we would have to conclude that God is more hateful and wrathful than he is loving. But now I have become guilty of changing the subject!
HTS,
ReplyDeleteFor reasons other than the issues discussed on this post, I have decided to revoke my membership at Redeemer. It is a wonderful church, and I love everyone there very very much! If you would ever like to know why I left, I would be open to grabbing a cup of coffee.
Stephanie,
ReplyDeleteSorry it took me so long to get back to you! I really appreciate all your comments!
If I were a horse, and I went to hell, I would totally wish that I had never even existed!
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Here are some Bible verses on hell (Net translation):
Matthew 13:49-50
"It will be this way at the end of the age. Angels will come and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Revelation 14:9-11
14:9 A third angel followed the first two, declaring in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and takes the mark on his forehead or his hand, 14:10 that person will also drink of the wine of God’s anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb. 14:11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
You could look up a lot more on google as well! What I want to point out is that hell is not just an 'absence'- it is the PRESENCE of God's unparalleled wrath.
I realize this is a difficult topic- one that can be extremely troubling and painful for someone who has been taught that 'God loves everyone' (most Christians). I personally had a deep struggle with this. I spent hours agonizing over it, including several sleepless nights. Anyway, I understand that this is rough intelectual territory to cover, and I respect you for being willing to think about it and share your thoughts.
-Josh
I've read the other bible verses that explain hell, but again, I would stress that the bible is still composed by humans. Flawed humans that try to capture a perfect God into words.
ReplyDeleteThere will be discomforting imperfect explinations. Defining God in our weak terms as 'loving' and 'just' does not capture his true picture.
Let me start by saying I have not read all of the comments. I only read the original post.
ReplyDeleteHere are my thoughts. Short and sweet. God does not send people to Hell because he does not love them. He sends people to Hell because he is a true and good judge. When a human is sent away from the presence of God it is motivated by justice and justice alone, not because he doesn't love them.
You might consider thinking about the garden, Cain and Able, The Flood, God's dealing with Israel. God punishes sin out of his nature of justice, not out of hate (or not loving people). Failure to not act justly would make God a sinner.
While he punishes sin in justice, we also see love, mercy, and grace in his character through his consistency to always save a remnant.
Again, consider the garden, cain & able, the flood, Israel, and finally the church.
Hope you are doing well Josh!
So according to the Bible, God created the human race knowing exactly how many people and which people would choose to follow Him. He knows every hair on your head, and every thought in your head. Therefore, he knows exactly who and how many people would not believe in Him. Therefore He knew exactly how many and who he would be sending to hell to be tortured for eternity. So He created the horse, brought it to water, all the while knowing it would not drink, and then let it die an everlasting death of dehydration. I just don't see how there is any argument against this, which was pretty upsetting to me for quite awhile because I was raised Christian and whole heartedly believed it for a long time. But once I started questioning it, I have heard no convincing argument in God's favor regarding this topic.
ReplyDeleteI've always thought of Hell not as a place of actual torture... i.e., the whole lake of fire thing. I've always thought that those descriptions of physical agony were merely ways of describing how terrible it is to be separated from God (which is what I think Hell is-- eternal, irreversible separation from God).
ReplyDeleteMore to the point of this post, I believe that people choose Hell by not desiring a relationship with God. However, I disagree that people who do not explicitly accept Christ (non-Christians) are automatically doomed to Hell. I'm coming from a Catholic perspective here (the Church is very adamant that non-Christians can in fact go to Heaven), but now we're getting into the discussion about what is required to reach Heaven, which is an entirely different topic.
As to the argument that it would have been better for those who eventually end up in Hell to have never been born, and therefore God doesn't love them because he created them, I'm not entirely convinced by this. We are remarkably fortunate to even have the opportunity to know God, even if we reject that opportunity. Life itself is a wonderful gift, a gift that is denied to a virtually infinite number of beings. God has given us this opportunity to get to know him, and regardless of whether or not we use it, it is a privilege.
I believe that God is love (see Pope Benedict XVI's recent encyclical "Deus caritas est"), and that he therefore loves his creations.
Thanks for posting this, Josh. This is a very important topic that troubles many believers and non-believers alike.
I have enjoyed reading your blog Josh and I think that you have brought up a very important topic. At one point in my life I really struggled with the idea that God could love everyone, but then cast some people into eternal torture/hellfire. The way I look at is that God does love everyone and wants them to accept him. The punishment for not accepting him is as Joe stated above.
ReplyDeleteI have no experience in dying so I cannot say that the second you die, you are either brought into heaven or sent to hell but, A man and a pastor that I have always had a great deal of respect for once told me that he believed God reaches down to people throughout their whole lives trying to bring them to trust him and believe in him. He believed that when people die, God reaches down to save them one last time and that person can choose to take his hand or not.
Sorry that is not backed with any kind of literature that I have been able to find, but I think that this topic is abstract and really requires a belief more than facts.
One thing that I would like to point out is that we have to look at God differently when we read the old and new testaments. God's personality changes, for lack of a better word, after the coming and death of Christ.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for commenting! I'm glad you have enjoyed reading my blog. I very much appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts on this difficult and controversial issue.
I would like to respectfully question the validity of the statement made by the pastor you are referring to. While it certainly would be comforting to believe that God gives everyone another chance to be saved after they die, I know of no evidence in the Bible that would support such a belief. In fact, it seems that the Bible teaches exactly the opposite: http://biblia.com/books/nkjv/Lk16.19-31.
As for what hell is like, there is a certain degree of Biblical interpretation involved. In my interpretation, hell is at least a really bad place to be. I don't think it is a good idea to stretch phrases such as "fiery furnace," "weeping and gnashing of teeth,"drink of the wine of God’s anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath" "he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb" and "the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever" to mean something nice, good, neutral, or menially unpleasant (I recommend reading those verses in context for fuller meaning, see references in my previous comment). Those phrases tend to indicate something at the very least much worse than neutral. They probably indicate something more like torture, or at least something such that if person A were to subject person B to the things described for eternity (or even a long time), it could be accurately said that person A does not love person B.
Anyway, I truly appreciate your comment and I realize this is tough material. I'm removing my emotions as much as possible (how could I talk about this if I didn't), examining the evidence, and trying to come to the most legitimate answer, even if I don't like it (which I very much do not). Please feel free to comment again.
Josh, it's Robby.
ReplyDeleteSeems a little over-stepping to make any calls on who does or does not get into heaven other than it is by God's decision.
If God defines justice, as you said, then nobody will look at God after He judges them and truly believe that He has made the wrong decision. In fact, the only Biblical evidence of that happening is when "followers" of Christ who truly did not know Jesus, but were involved in ministry, were cast away from His presence (also a Biblical reference for hell being an absence of God, not necessarily meaning it is not torturous).
I think if you take pre-destination out of it, it is much easier to see God as loving and just. He would not create anyone just to cast them away from Himself.
There will be many surprises in heaven, I believe. The Bible really does not speak that specifically about the afterlife and it also discusses in Revelation, certain time periods of punishment that were meant to turn people to repentance.
Believing that God and His love are at heart, fatherly (or rather that parental love is based on God's love), makes is easier to understand wrath. If you're a dad, those who mess with your son and oppose your son and reject your son, are not your friends.
Another analogy for love and justice are the interactions between the criminal and the judge in today's court system. The judge sending the criminal to jail is not indicative of the judge not loving the criminal as a fellow being. Likewise, a bank enforcing that people pay their mortgages or else lose their house does not mean that the bank is being unfair or unloving. Grace is actually highly unfair. I don't deserve it, but He gives it to me for His name's sake and because He wants me to be with Him forever. That is His love.
One of the most difficult ideas to truly understand, when we talk about how God foreknew who would reject his Son, and so go to hell in eternal torment is this: he made us with the ability to either choose Jesus or not. The ability to either look for goodness with all our heart, or not.
ReplyDeleteThe eternal torment partly comes from the anguish that souls will feel after physical death when they come into the presence of pure goodness, pure righteousness, pure love - all that is Jesus, and he says to them "depart from me, I don't know you".
And that is because for their entire life on earth, those people chose to follow what they wanted (which for humans never includes love to God or others, by nature), rather than what he wants - which is undivided love to him, and love to our neighbor (defined as anyone whom we come in close contact with, enemy, family, fellow Christian, co-worker, etc.).
And love is not a feeling. It is patience, faithfulness, not angry, not blaming, forgiving, kind, rejoicing in the truth.
He gives us the choice to either love (as he does) nor not. It's a hard choice.
And just because right now statistics in America say there aren't many Christians, that is deceiving. Jesus came to pay for all the sins of MANY (scriptue says this). So over time, there ARE may Christians, actually, who do accept him - I think 50% or more of people who have ever inhabited earth HAVE made him Lord, and follow in his two-fold commandment to love God and neighbor. So that's the big picture, versus what American Christianity looks like statistically.
Arina Ulman
Hi Arina,
DeleteThank you so much for taking the time to read my post and write such a comprehensive response. I really appreciate your input!
I do respectfully disagree with you on a few points, though.
1. Because God is omnipotent (knows everything), he created the world knowing who would and would not choose him. He decided to create people knowing they would choose hell. He made the conscious and fully informed decision to create people whom he knew would choose to go to hell. As in the case of Judas, 'it would have been better for them if they had never been born.'
2. You are correct that eternal torment partly comes from the anguish of not getting to experience the perfection of God. The other parts of the eternal torment described by the Bible include 'fiery furnace,' 'God pouring out the cup of his wrath,' 'a lake of fire,' and 'the gnashing of teeth.' For more on what hell is like, I recommend Francis Chan's 'Erasing Hell.'
3. I agree that people who choose to reject God deserve to go to hell (because God defines the rules and defines what is right). This doesn't change the fact that God decided to create people knowing beforehand what they would choose.
4. Jesus is pretty clear on how many people get into heaven- “Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it." -Matthew 7:13-14
5. Where did you get your 50% statistic? That is simply false. At the present time about 33% of the global population consider themselves to be Christian: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html. So, about a third of people.
So yes, there are a lot of Christians. However, the majority of people are not. This would indicate that most (or, 66% if we assume that the statistics are dead-on) people go to hell, and God wanted it that way.
I realize this is an upsetting subject, and I am certainly not happy that most people go to hell. Thank you for taking the time to hear my thoughts, and I am happy to continue this conversation if you would like.
-JTS
Greetings in the name of Christ,
ReplyDeleteI found your intelligent blog by googling "God does not love everyone".
I agree. Romans 9.
I thought you might be able to help me...
My name is Andrew Bain and I live in Orlando FL with my wife and children.
We cannot find a congregation to fellowship here with.
All the congregations require me to subscribe to a man-made fallible doctrine-of-man human-tradition creed in order to become a member and one day maybe a deacon/elder.
God willing, I'm willing to move anywhere in the USA/Canada to a congregation where I can be baptized and become a member/deacon/elder and the Word of God can be my only creed.
If you would be so kind to call me on 4079149059 that would be really helpful.
A filthy leper saved only by the perfect obedience and shed blood of the chosen anointed son of God, Jesus Christ,
Andrew Bain
onlyGodisgood7@gmail.com
http://psalms.pbwiki.com
http://youtube.com/andrewcbain
http://Godnoliar.com
http://facebook.com/BainAndrew
The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the
ROMANS
-- Literal Translation of the Holy Bible - Copyright 1976 - 2000 --
Chapter: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 |
[Bible Menu]
Romans 1
1 Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, separated to the gospel of God,
2 which He promised before through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
3 concerning His Son who came of the seed of David according to flesh,
4 who was marked out the Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord;
5 by whom we received grace and apostleship to obedience of faith among all the nations, for His name's sake,
6 among whom are you also, called-out ones of Jesus Christ;
7 to all those who are in Rome, beloved of God, called-out saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of in all the world.
9 For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the gospel of His Son, how without ceasing I make mention of you
10 always at my prayers, beseeching if by any means now at length I shall be blessed by the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, for the establishing of you;
Scripture taken from the Literal Translation of the Holy Bible
Copyright 1976 - 2000
By Jay P. Green, Sr.
Used by permission of the copyright holder
Courtesy of Sovereign Grace Publishers and Christian Literature World
[Policy for Reprint & Quoting from the Literal Translation]